Curse

Daesu · Jan 26, 2011, 08:08 PM // 20:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

EDIT: I'll probably work Splinter Weapon in instead of the Ranger

Interesting build, but is it worth sacrificing PS and Aegis?

I agree with Xeno on the ER Orders, a necro would be better since you dont need to lock up its secondary.

NerfHerder · Jan 26, 2011, 09:10 PM // 21:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

A Nec has a more powerful Orders and isn't locked into a secondary.
In the end, the energy boost and not too well timed health boosts don't outweigh power and utility options.

A necro would need cultists fervor to pump out OoP and Dark Fury. IF the healthloss(even with blood renewal) and bleeding didnt take unnessessary energy from my healers I would agree with you for 2 more hit points. And I would need more condition removal to compensate. In a party full of physicals, blind sucks if your condition removal is recharging. Plus, the ER orders pumps out OoP and Dark Fury more often. I dont know why it just does. Maybe because thats its only job.

Is it worth not taking PS and Aegis? With +100 AR(82% damage reduction) and TnTF/ToF=35-50% damage reduction on top of that. I dont care what hits me.

Dzjudz · Jan 26, 2011, 09:18 PM // 21:18

Are you using any special spearheads for that build?

Otherwise I'd say use Fiery Spearheads and stick Mark of Rodgort on the ele instead of Liquid Flame or Rip Enchantment.

Edit: disregard that, Orders wouldn't work with elemental damage.

Daesu · Jan 26, 2011, 10:44 PM // 22:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

A necro would need cultists fervor to pump out OoP and Dark Fury. IF the healthloss(even with blood renewal) and bleeding didnt take unnessessary energy from my healers I would agree with you for 2 more hit points. And I would need more condition removal to compensate. In a party full of physicals, blind sucks if your condition removal is recharging. Plus, the ER orders pumps out OoP and Dark Fury more often. I dont know why it just does. Maybe because thats its only job.

I think what Xeno is trying to say is that you don't get ER up all the time. Partly due to the limited AI and partly, the game mechanics. Even at level 16 ES and 20% enchant, you still miss about 5s of ER at the minimum. The AI also doesn't want to cast it unless it starts running out of energy.

As for a necro needing cultists fervor to pump out OoP and Dark Fury, that is arguable. If you are not bringing an MM, you can bring Well of Power and it also frees up your necro's secondary.

Xenomortis · Jan 26, 2011, 11:55 PM // 23:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

A necro would need cultists fervor to pump out OoP and Dark Fury. IF the healthloss(even with blood renewal) and bleeding didnt take unnessessary energy from my healers I would agree with you for 2 more hit points. And I would need more condition removal to compensate. In a party full of physicals, blind sucks if your condition removal is recharging. Plus, the ER orders pumps out OoP and Dark Fury more often. I dont know why it just does. Maybe because thats its only job.

I would avoid putting DF and Orders on the same bar - generally I don't bother with DF with the current 3 heroes.
The extra condition removal you'd run with CF is Foul Feast - otherwise don't bother. Half the time the only condition removal in my build is Mend Body and Soul.
Yes, pumping out DF and OoP is very, very easy if it's the only thing your build is capable of.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

Is it worth not taking PS and Aegis? With +100 AR(82% damage reduction) and TnTF/ToF=35-50% damage reduction on top of that. I dont care what hits me.

I care when armour ignoring spikes are around in any form. That and Vocal Minority or perhaps Well of Silence.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

I think what Xeno is trying to say is that you don't get ER up all the time. Partly due to the limited AI and partly, the game mechanics. Even at level 16 ES and 20% enchant, you still miss about 5s of ER at the minimum. The AI also doesn't want to cast it unless it starts running out of energy.

My "not too well timed health boosts" comment was more aimed at the fact that even with ER up, the sac goes through. The healing from ER is applied before sacrifices. The effect of this is that your healers are still going to waste energy healing you.
ER uptime doesn't concern me as much as that.

Daesu · Jan 27, 2011, 12:24 AM // 00:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

My "not too well timed health boosts" comment was more aimed at the fact that even with ER up, the sac goes through. The healing from ER is applied before sacrifices. The effect of this is that your healers are still going to waste energy healing you.
ER uptime doesn't concern me as much as that.

The main feature of an ER orders is the ability to heal and gain energy through ER. If ER is not up often enough, then the build breaks down. Eles do not have infinite energy but an ER orders is suppose to be spammy and requires a vast amount of energy.

Xenomortis · Jan 27, 2011, 12:31 AM // 00:31

Heroes maintain ER well enough for most ER builds to function.
ER uptime on a hero is not my real concern. Sure it's got a drawback in that it's fragile, but that doesn't worry me because it's not often an issue.

Daesu · Jan 27, 2011, 12:42 AM // 00:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Heroes maintain ER well enough for most ER builds to function.
ER uptime on a hero is not my real concern. Sure it's got a drawback in that it's fragile, but that doesn't worry me because it's not often an issue.

I find that if ER, AoR, and AtB are up, the Ele hero can maintain its hp when casting orders. However ER is the only enchantment in there that cannot be maintained throughout (unless using cons or micro GoS), so the Ele loses hp when that happens.

NerfHerder · Jan 27, 2011, 01:54 AM // 01:54

I find that regardless of who you put the orders on, your heros will waste energy covering the sacrifice. Its just less so on the ER Orders.

I made some changes to my Para Way. I really like OotV, but if you need adrenaline, Dark Fury is the way to go. And on these builds I would micro MoP for placement and Convert Hexes for myself incase I get hex stacked.

If you dont like it, trade the SF and Orders in for what you like(MM) or use this...

If anyone has a better Orders build than those, please share.

Sankt Hallvard · Jan 27, 2011, 05:30 AM // 05:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

If anyone has a better Orders build than those, please share.

There's this thing called order of ze vampire you could look into.

Daesu · Jan 27, 2011, 05:33 AM // 05:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

If anyone has a better Orders build than those, please share.

I like Well of Power better. It has the added advantage of not being in the pvx bar.

Dzjudz · Jan 27, 2011, 12:07 PM // 12:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

I like Well of Power better. It has the added advantage of not being in the pvx bar.

I've never used a Well in PvE in almost 6 years. Do heroes know how to use them?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard

There's this thing called order of ze vampire you could look into.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

I really like OotV, but if you need adrenaline, Dark Fury is the way to go.

Daesu · Jan 27, 2011, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

I've never used a Well in PvE in almost 6 years. Do heroes know how to use them?

They seem to use WoP whenever a corpse is available.

Dzjudz · Jan 27, 2011, 07:51 PM // 19:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

They seem to use WoP whenever a corpse is available.

What I meant to ask is: do heroes know how to handle / interact with Wells? And if they stand in it, do they keep standing in it when they are hit with DoTAoE?

Hooper287 · Jan 27, 2011, 08:01 PM // 20:01

When is this update even happening, I see only mild confirmation that they even THOUGHT of doing it.

Xenomortis · Jan 27, 2011, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

What I meant to ask is: do heroes know how to handle / interact with Wells? And if they stand in it, do they keep standing in it when they are hit with DoTAoE?

No. Same answer for Wards.

Dzjudz · Jan 27, 2011, 09:12 PM // 21:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

No. Same answer for Wards.

Yeah but at least you can place wards. Seems wells are pretty useless with heroes then.

Chthon · Jan 27, 2011, 09:22 PM // 21:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

Yeah but at least you can place wards. Seems wells are pretty useless with heroes then.

The sheer size of a well mitigates that problem quite a bit. Even with stupid placement and stupid positioning, heroes are still likely to end up inside a well.

Sankt Hallvard · Jan 27, 2011, 09:31 PM // 21:31

Keep in mind that wells target the closest corpse so chances are they'll end up in or at least near one. In the latter case they will often move into it anyway when they push up to kill the next foe.

Wells are pretty good, the biggest problem IMO is that WoP recharges too slow and is elite while WoB recharges way too fast, ending up stealing corpses from your MM.

Daesu · Jan 27, 2011, 11:27 PM // 23:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

The sheer size of a well mitigates that problem quite a bit. Even with stupid placement and stupid positioning, heroes are still likely to end up inside a well.

Yes, WoP works pretty well and is usually not a problem in most PvE situations.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard

Wells are pretty good, the biggest problem IMO is that WoP recharges too slow and is elite while WoB recharges way too fast, ending up stealing corpses from your MM.

There is no MM in his team build. With the sheer size of wells, and their long duration, chances are heroes would be standing in a well. Unfortunately, WoB doesn't recharge energy as well as hp, and we need that for dual orders. Also the AI doesn't cast WoB as often as they cast WoP last I tested.